Ivan Wrote:Ukrainian officials said Gazprom had "deliberately" sent the gas by a route that would have meant switching off gas to Ukrainian consumers in the east of the country. Instead of supplying gas via the traditional route, through Ukraine's Belgorod and Rostov region, it had been sent on a bypass route which would paralyse supplies to the towns of Donetsk and Luhansk. "This is just provocation against Ukraine," said Bohdan Sokolovsky, Ukraine's commissioner for energy security.
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How long Belgorod and Rostov are Ukraine's regions? Did I miss something? Did you seen the map? E.g.: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm">http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm</a><!-- m -->. Eastern Europeans are hostages of Ukrainian dumbocracy.
What do you mean Russia is Russia?) Is it a central of the world?))
Do you know the reason why the supply was blocked?? Do you know why? Because Russia started to supply a very limited quitity via the route which is used for domestic gas supplies within Ukraine...Do you know why they did it? They wanted to develope this conflict and in case we let the gas flow through that route, they would say look! Ukraine is stealing our gas again! - because it is technically IMPOSSIBLE to transit any gas to EU via that route! And Gazprom knows about it!
Guest Wrote:Hmmmm...SiD, you are right! but when you try to drink anything from the bottle which is not in your hand - it doesn't matter either the bottle is opened or not and full or empty. I mean that Russia sent gas, but it sent it in very limited quantity and via a route which is not ready to supply gas to EU but is used for supplies within Ukraine.
Thats what Ukraine officials are claiming, but thier words are often conflicting and not trustworthy in my opinion. Thats why EU was involved to bring third supposedly neutral party to see who is telling truth.
SiD, I'm glad to know that EU officials have already been involved in the process and I hope that it will let the problem be solved soon! And believe me, if it was technically possible to open transit to Europe, we would do it! The only thing I hope that EU officials will be provided with necessary data and information to decide who is REALLY guilty in this case? No one in Ukraine doesn't want this conflict to be developed further...no one...
And one more target of official Kremlin is to get Ukrainian gas-supplying system under its control! I'm sure, in this case not only Ukraine will suffer, but EU will as well and maybe even more than Ukraine. Now EU depends on Russian gas and already is in trouble with it...just try to imagine, what would happen if Gazprom controled Ukraininan gas-supplying system..? Do you think you would get gas with no problem and at the real market price? I do not think so!
Seems like Ukrainian brethren are starting to be paranoiac. Relax guys! Stop being bursting with envy that Russia has smart leaders. Some day you get rid of your failed management and be successful too.
I like Ukraine very much!
The latest news: Ukrainian side has just asked ONCE AGAIN their Russian collegues at Gazprom to let the gas flow via the route which is directly transit gas to EU. The reply of Russia is that they continue to try to send the gas via route which in case Ukraine open it, will leave a half of Western part of Ukraine without gas! :evil
So now, what would you say? And what is you proposal? How can Ukraine transit gas in this case? :banghead
nat Wrote:Of course, it is all about politics. Who questions that? In politics you put your interests first and then care for the rest. Take Russia's point of view. Ukraine wants to be part of NATO which Russia opposes. Ukraine supported Georgia in the conflict with Russia which again meant opposition to Russia. Therefore, when Ukraine asks for "special" gas prices, Russia has every right to deny that request. If you sell gas for 450 USD to all the European consumers, why do you have to make a special exception to Ukraine and sell it for 201 USD? As simple as that. Politics.
Imagine you are an entrepreneur. You live by making and selling clothes. The market price of a particular t-shirt is 1 dollar. So you sell it in your store for 1 dollar to your customers. Now you have a friend who cannot pay this 1 dollar for this shirt. So you make a decision to sell it for 20 cents to your friend. But anytime you can reconsider this decision especially when your "friend" is no longer a "friend".
Once again it is all politics. No question on that. But who does it differently?
But at the same time your frind wants to deliver the t-shirt to othe consumers using the trucks of the "20 per cent t- shirt byer friend" for free. Good economic policy. You have the goods but want someone to deliver them to the consumers for free. Real frendship. Hire price for t-shirt - hire price for delivery. Don`t want delivery for hire price - thats ok, do not deliver.
Dear Guest, you are brainwashed. Ukrainian partners are escaping any dialogue with Gazprom. Stop thinking that multimillionaire corporation is managed by idiots. Gazprom has to fill Russian budget , so it is its interest to start supplying as soon as possible. Ukraine is interested in promotion of Nabukko pipeline controlled by United States! Simple as that!
SiD Wrote:BK Wrote:The soft belly of the Dragon is exposed --namely, the "black money" from fradulent gas transactions that Russia uses to distort Ukrainian politics and to feed its own elite. The EU is in a position to kill it simply by offering to assure Ukraine's gas supplies at the aggregate price paid by European countries -which is less than $300. It would force Russia to capitulate or face certain economic ruin. Does EU have the strength and wisdom to slay the dragon?
Did i understood you correctly that you suggest EU that buys gas from Russia to sell it to Ukraine at "right" price . Well i want to watch that . Besides it is nice solution buy gas and than offer it to Ukraine i do not think our government would care who pays. Or you have other things in head to assure Ukraine gas supplies? . Becouse your following sentence makes no sense at all.
Yes, I am suggesting that Europe keep its monitors here and replace the corrupt RosUkrgasprom intermediary that is used by Russia to pay off corrupt Ukrainian and Russian politicians. If Russia STILL refuses to open all the lines then Europe will know who the real liar is. And Russia will be in even more serious economic trouble than it is now.
As I know Russia is ready to pay more for delivery, but at the same time Russia wants their gas to be delivered to EU consumers. The question is "Why Ukraine don't want to deliver?" The only answer is "In that case they will not be interest for other countries". It's Ukrainian policy - to show how their so called democracy is under the Russian threat. This is the only way to get some money from westerns for development their so called democracy.
Should I remind you, guys, the situation on Georgia last summer? We all thought that big authoritarian Russia was going to destroy young Georgian democracy, but now we all know the truth.
I'm absolutely agree with sektor_Gaza!
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Seems like Ukrainian brethren are starting to be paranoiac. Relax guys! Stop being bursting with envy that Russia has smart leaders. Some day you get rid of your failed management and be successful too.
I like Ukraine very much!
It is Russia who is getting (even more) paranoid. They have even started blaming the crisis on corrupt politicians that THEY are corrupting and, even more bizarre, accusing Washington of causing the crisis. Putin WAS smart...for Russia at least -- but he has apparently been driven crazy by Gazprom's and hence Russia's impending bankruptcy. Putin has put Russian imperialism over the lives or millions of Europeans. They will not forget or forgive this for a looooong time.
To dear BK
ON Russian TV, I watched today EU monitors' interview where they straightly blame Ukraine in blocking gas supply. But it is so strange that European press do not bother themselves to show their comments released yesterday.
These guys were sent by EU and nobody listening them in the West ! Strange!
Dear Guest,
Your fantasies past all rational levels. Gasprom simply wants to get paid and deliver gas without interruption and lose.
sektor_Gaza Wrote:To dear BK
ON Russian TV, I watched today EU monitors' interview where they straightly blame Ukraine in blocking gas supply. But it is so strange that European press do not bother themselves to show their comments released yesterday.
These guys were sent by EU and nobody listening them in the West ! Strange!
And it explains many things! you make your conclusions on the news you have seen on Russian TV? Hmmmm....It is useless to debate now as Mr. Putin strongly controls what must be shown, especially on the chanels broadcasting to EU)) We can watch Ukrainian news, Russian, European and US...so we are able to compare different points of view and make our own conclusions. Russian channels are censored very very much!But, again, it's your opinion...time will show who is right...anyway I do not want this conflict among officials be a reason of hate between people...((
sektor_Gaza Wrote:To dear BK
ON Russian TV, I watched today EU monitors' interview where they straightly blame Ukraine in blocking gas supply. But it is so strange that European press do not bother themselves to show their comments released yesterday.
These guys were sent by EU and nobody listening them in the West ! Strange!
If Ukraine were solely to blame why is the EU today blaming BOTH Russia and Ukraine? And what of Ukraine's claims that Russia has deliberately chosen a route which would destabilise Ukraine's emergency routing of gas to its own populations ? Context! The issue is more complex that the word "blocking" suggests. Ukraine has asked Russia to use its normal major pipe routes to ship the gas. Russia could easily do this but it has refused. Ask yourself, Why?
It looks like that Russia only wants to play muscle with "disobedient" countries
Quote:And it explains many things! you make your conclusions on the news you have seen on Russian TV? Hmmmm....It is useless to debate now as Mr. Putin strongly controls what must be shown, especially on the chanels broadcasting to EU)) We can watch Ukrainian news, Russian, European and US...so we are able to compare different points of view and make our own conclusions. Russian channels are censored very very much!But, again, it's your opinion...time will show who is right...anyway I do not want this conflict among officials be a reason of hate between people...((
My Dear Friends,
Russia does not block any television channel from any country. It is Ukraine who blocked all Russian TV channels and left Russian - speakers uninformed and discriminated since Ukraine restricted use of Russian language in Ukraine. I said I love Ukrainians, but hate radical nationalists like Yushchenko!
You can also say that Russian opposition is suppressed. Then I will remind you who are real opposition to Putin in Russia: 1) Communistic Party (which hates Putin for his success in social sphere, they started to loose voters) ; 2) Liberal Democratic Party (Rulled By Zhirinovsky); 2) Others: agrarians and so on
I do believe that Pitun and Medvedev are worrying about Ukrainian brother nation!
Eugeny Wrote:Ivan Wrote:Ukrainian officials said Gazprom had "deliberately" sent the gas by a route that would have meant switching off gas to Ukrainian consumers in the east of the country. Instead of supplying gas via the traditional route, through Ukraine's Belgorod and Rostov region, it had been sent on a bypass route which would paralyse supplies to the towns of Donetsk and Luhansk. "This is just provocation against Ukraine," said Bohdan Sokolovsky, Ukraine's commissioner for energy security.
Ukraine's president, Viktor Yushchenko, went further. His office compared Russia's actions to those of the Nazis during the wartime siege of Leningrad. Andrei Kislinksy, deputy head of Ukraine's presidential secretariat, said the gas war "increasingly resembles the blockade of Leningrad after the failure of the blitzkrieg" and added that its primary purpose seemed to be about making Yushchenko step down from office.
The question is how long Mr.Putin is going to hold the Europeans hostages of his imperialistic policy?
How long Belgorod and Rostov are Ukraine's regions? Did I miss something? Did you seen the map? E.g.: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm">http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm</a><!-- m -->. Eastern Europeans are hostages of Ukrainian dumbocrathy.
Dear Eugeny,
First, it was a quote from an article from The Guardian. The same article that the first post refers to.
Second, you are very rude. You must be a Russian, aren't you?
Quote:If Ukraine were solely to blame why is the EU today blaming BOTH Russia and Ukraine?
For EU to blame Ukraine only is the same as to blame itself in economical and political insolvency. By connivance Ukraine become unmanageable and irresponsible partner since being completely controlled by Department of State. As Condoliza Rice said: She has grown up as expert on hate upon Russia! Think again who is benefiting of this conflict. No Russia nether Ukraine!
Dear sector_Gaza, can you answer just one question? If Gazprom is still so interested in supplying gas to EU, why they refused to re-direct gas supplies from the route used for Ukrainian domestic gas supplies to the route directly to EU? Why? Ukrainian Naftogas officials asked them TWICE to re-direst gas supply and explained why they can't provide EU with gas via that route, but Gasprom still blames Ukraine and doesn't do anything to re-direct their supplies!
No, Ukraine is not a terrorist state. It is, unfortunately, shortsighted and, yes, corrupt , but the same and more can be said of Russia. The issue is not gas, it is power. Ukraine wishes to become independent from Russia; Russia wants to preserve its "sphere of influence" and the sense of empire it had under the old USSR. Europe is caught in the middle and is actually in a position to resolve the conflict. All Europe has to do is assure to provide Ukraine with gas at the aggregate European price (under $300.) This would reduce Russia's ability to use gas as a weapon against Ukraine, as well as help eliminate a major source of corruption in the regions. And it would also make it impossible for Russia to hide its current political power games by pointing a finger at Ukraine.
1.Timoshenko's government is the worst corrupt government in Ukrainian history. Moreover, natural gas speculations and natural gas stealing has been a business for this lady for long period of time. She has spent a few weeks in Ukrainian jell for that, and has been released just because of the mass protests organized by supporters. Unfortunately, in 2004 Ukrainian people preferred to believe in conspiracy theories what’ve been coming from Uschenko-Timoshenko side, instead of supporting stable and professional government of Mr.Yanukovich. Europe has actually made the same choice. EU supported so called Ukrainian democracy, and like Ukrainian nation has to pay a high price for it.
2. In 1992, George Busch left his office. He's also left a Yugoslavian crisis that has been prepared by long term support of Croatian ultra right-winged movement (former Nazi collaborators) Ustashi by American government and state depaartment. In 2009, George W Busch is leaving his office. He's also creating a new crisis i between Ukraine and Russia. He's using the same tool (former Nazi collaborators movement Banderovtsy). And they both threatening the stabilyty for to European continent
The main problem is that Russia hasn't enough amount of its own gas to supply to Europe because of cold winter. Gazprom bought Turkmen gas for this purpose but it's too expensive. According to Putin's speech on January 8th, it costs $340. The Russians sell their own gas from $250-280 for Bulgaria, Slovakia and Poland to $450 for Germany including all transit fees (or between $200 and $280 without them).
Obviously, the goals of Russia are:
1. To minimize its loses.
2. To get the Ukrainian GTS.
3. To receive money for building new pipelines.
4. To weaken Ukrainian authority.
5. To show its power.
At the same time Putin and Gazprom demand Ukraine to pay the market price for their gas which is constantly changed by them ($400, $418, $450, $470), but don't want to pay the market price for transit fee via Ukraine (which is now $1.7 in Ukraine and from $4 to $13 in Europe).
Hence, Russia prefers to wait until it becomes much warmer (or until Turkmenistan lowers their gas prices for Russia) blaming Ukraine and even the USA at the same time. Russian government is going to look for new cavils such as stealing gas, not paying for it, blocking it and offering incorrect directions for gas transportation via Ukraine, not providing technological gas to pump the gas to Europe in order to don't supply gas to Europe and have reasons to make allegations against Ukraine.
Quote:by ukrainian on Today, 18:22
1.Timoshenko's government is the worst corrupt government in Ukrainian history. Moreover, natural gas speculations and natural gas stealing has been a business for this lady for long period of time. She has spent a few weeks in Ukrainian jell for that, and has been released just because of the mass protests organized by supporters. Unfortunately, in 2004 Ukrainian people preferred to believe in conspiracy theories what’ve been coming from Uschenko-Timoshenko side, instead of supporting stable and professional government of Mr.Yanukovich. Europe has actually made the same choice. EU supported so called Ukrainian democracy, and like Ukrainian nation has to pay a high price for it.
2. In 1992, George Busch left his office. He's also left a Yugoslavian crisis that has been prepared by long term support of Croatian ultra right-winged movement (former Nazi collaborators) Ustashi by American government and state depaartment. In 2009, George W Busch is leaving his office. He's also creating a new crisis i between Ukraine and Russia. He's using the same tool (former Nazi collaborators movement Banderovtsy). And they both threatening the stabilyty for to European continent
Someday Ukraine will be great country as its people are very kind and friendly. All we need to do is not to fall for provocations from abroad.