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Does Ukrainian President has bold balls to take decision?

RussianRussianRussian Wrote:So-that you see that Russia a victory. Russia provides normal conditions for delivery of the gas to Europe. Europe receives gas and receives the control how gas passes through Ukraine.
Ukraine loses possibility to steal gas.

Russia shut off the gas. It lost billions and billions of dollars. Ukraine lost nothing. It stood up to Russia and gave it the thumb! Russian and Ukrainian crooks will not be able to steal any more money from Russian and Ukrainian people. But the important thing. Russia will soon turn on the gas ALL the gas. And THEN Ukraine will deliver it. The world is laughing at Russia and LilliPutin.

RussianRussianRussian Wrote:So-that you see that Russia a victory. Russia provides normal conditions for delivery of the gas to Europe. Europe receives gas and receives the control how gas passes through Ukraine.
Ukraine loses possibility to steal gas.

"Normal conditions " - means stopping the gas flow to the rest of the Europe any time Russia wishes.

Not RussianRussianRussian Wrote:Russia shut off the gas. It lost billions and billions of dollars. Ukraine lost nothing. It stood up to Russia and gave it the thumb! Russian and Ukrainian crooks will not be able to steal any more money from Russian and Ukrainian people. But the important thing. Russia will soon turn on the gas ALL the gas. And THEN Ukraine will deliver it. The world is laughing at Russia and LilliPutin.

There is no you misunderstand. Russia delivered gas to Ukraine for reduced prices and shut eyes to their larceny not because could not stop it. That is why, that regretted Ukraine as we lived with them earlier as one people. We do not have problem to force Ukraine something to lose!!! We do not want that Ukraine lived badly. We want that it too it was good. But to all there is a limit if someone starts to abuse our help, such abusing we have been simply obliged to stop. Now we will simply sell it gas under the normal price and all.

About losses. What losses at Russia?
Gain for one month of deliveries of gas.

What profit at Russia?
It is a lot of years of sale of gas to Ukraine at the market price.

What losses at Ukraine?
Now she should pay for gas much more.
And the new market price for transit will cover only a part of these new expenses.
In 2011 Russia will construct roundabout gas pipelines and Ukraine in general will cease to receive profit for transit. Or will lose the most part of this profit.

What profit at Ukraine?
Any, even gas which to it now will give for transit renewal, it should pay then from money which to it will give for transit.

So to that you rejoice? If you rejoice in such situation you the enemy and Ukraine which much is lost also by the enemy of Europe which has appeared the hostage of a situation and froze without gas and the enemy of Russia which you abuse and rejoice thinking that we have lost something or have lost.
Your estimation of a situation the short-sighted.

RussianRussianRussian Wrote:
Not RussianRussianRussian Wrote:Russia shut off the gas. It lost billions and billions of dollars. Ukraine lost nothing. It stood up to Russia and gave it the thumb! Russian and Ukrainian crooks will not be able to steal any more money from Russian and Ukrainian people. But the important thing. Russia will soon turn on the gas ALL the gas. And THEN Ukraine will deliver it. The world is laughing at Russia and LilliPutin.

There is no you misunderstand. Russia delivered gas to Ukraine for reduced prices and shut eyes to their larceny not because could not stop it. That is why, that regretted Ukraine as we lived with them earlier as one people. We do not have problem to force Ukraine something to lose!!! We do not want that Ukraine lived badly. We want that it too it was good. But to all there is a limit if someone starts to abuse our help, such abusing we have been simply obliged to stop. Now we will simply sell it gas under the normal price and all.

About losses. What losses at Russia?
Gain for one month of deliveries of gas.

What profit at Russia?
It is a lot of years of sale of gas to Ukraine at the market price.

What losses at Ukraine?
Now she should pay for gas much more.
And the new market price for transit will cover only a part of these new expenses.
In 2011 Russia will construct roundabout gas pipelines and Ukraine in general will cease to receive profit for transit. Or will lose the most part of this profit.

What profit at Ukraine?
Any, even gas which to it now will give for transit renewal, it should pay then from money which to it will give for transit.

So to that you rejoice? If you rejoice in such situation you the enemy and Ukraine which much is lost also by the enemy of Europe which has appeared the hostage of a situation and froze without gas and the enemy of Russia which you abuse and rejoice thinking that we have lost something or have lost.
Your estimation of a situation the short-sighted.

That was a lot of "rejoicing" :haha What are so rejoicing about??
:-P :-P :-P

I think its high time the word democracy is changed. I its meaning has changed. Nwadays a democratic government is one that Supports American interests, and not the one that rules in interest of its people. The Americans have just abused the words, now when someone says it, it sounds like some evil word. All the time its mentioned death is involved, opression or war. And Europeans are stupid enough they believe in the America democracy Doctrine. I hope they get bankrupt because they are a threat to humanity.

Cut all this crap about bad russia, blah,blah,blah. It's attitude bullshit and has no relationship to business, as stipulated in contracts. Even if we are waging this war intentionally, it's done according to contract conditions. Why we are doing it is our business...there are enough reasons for that (nazi heroes, Ossetia war, language problems ..to name a few). But once again, attitude is one thing, contracts and law is another.

There's a transit contract between us and Ukraine. It says we pay for transit and Ukraine provides it. It's not our business, which technological gaz they use to provide this service. It is separated from supply contract, which is about gas we sell to Ukraine. There's no supply contract, but there's transit contract till 2011. Ukraine doesn't fullfill it's obligations, AND WE DON"T CARE if they need to use export gas to facilitate transit. Because if they do use it, according to international law it's stealing. The example of loosing some of the baggage during air trip is valid here as comparison.

Stick to what there's in the contracts, and stop your attitude opinions.

BK Wrote:You are correct that Russia's divide and conquer policy of negotiating separate contracts served it well during the Georgian invasion.

First of all the best implementor of this old Roman principle Divida et Impera in practice was the British Empire until it was undermined by Uncle Sam - the new Empire, who have been implementing it all over the world, including Europe (e.g. Yugoslavia). So things have NOT changed at all as opposed to what you think and write here - below:

BK Wrote:But things have changed since then as demonstrated by todays statements from Germany's President

If you refer to Merkel (btw, she is not the President, but the Chancellor), yes she said something on the subject. But Steinmeier, currently Foreign Affairs Minister,who will be appointed the Chancellor this year (99%) says somewhat different thing. He is known to be a close ally to Schroeder, btw.

BK Wrote:and a German trade group currently IN Russia, that quote--Russia needs Europe more than Europe needs Russia--unquote.

that quote means what? Just a wishful thinking just like yours below:

BK Wrote:Russia has squandered its political capital and Europe is uniting.

Europe is not uniting even in the crisis, which many of newcomers will hardly survive.

BK Wrote:If you look at the membership of the EU today you will see that it already includes many of the Soviet empires former victims. Ukraine will eventually be a member of the EU (although probably not NATO.)

Keeping using the old fashion cliches, professor? Now all European countries are victims to a greter/lesser degree of the other Empire. So what? Many of them feel good under this umbrella, just like many of these victims felt good under soviet umbrella despite your western propaganda. E.g. Baltic states, whose economies are dying now.

BK Wrote:BUT, in fairness, I believe that Russia has incredible potential --but that is all that it has --potential. It should start developing that potential internally rather than pathetically trying to maintain the image of a world power. Need proof? What is the rate of the ruble against the dollar today? Or even against the Independent state of Ukraine's hrivna? Of course, these are only facts, you are free to disregard them as appears to be your habit.[/color]

You are pathetic, professor! How can you mesure a potential? Against what? Number of cars produced per year? There are European countries not manufacturing cars at all having a high living standard at the same time (Switzerland). Hi-tec? Russia's space technology remains among the leaders. Moreover, the US wiil sonn depend on Russia as their last shuttles will be written-off soon (2010).

Ruble-dollar rate. How about british pound - dollar rate? Grivna (let me spell it this way please) fell against dollar by approx.100%-150% for the last 6 months, and at some point (speculation) it was about 300% than drove back a bit, while ruble - only by approx. 40% (was 23 to 1, now 32 to 1), i.e. the same as pound and only a bit worse than euro. And that's because Russian economy had integrated to a significant degree into global economy and all the exports are calculated mainly in dollars. Would the government have managed to change it to rubles (as they planned to do so - it was announced), the picture would be totally different.

Guest Wrote:What do you mean Russia is Russia?) Is it a central of the world?))
Do you know the reason why the supply was blocked?? Do you know why? Because Russia started to supply a very limited quitity via the route which is used for domestic gas supplies within Ukraine...Do you know why they did it? They wanted to develope this conflict and in case we let the gas flow through that route, they would say look! Ukraine is stealing our gas again! - because it is technically IMPOSSIBLE to transit any gas to EU via that route! And Gazprom knows about it!

1. They chose the shortest route to the Balkans hit by the crisis most as they most depend on Russian gas, unlike UK, Germany or France.

2. Pipe to Sudja is the widest (1420 mm) and coincendentally the newest among all other ukrainian pipelines.

3. Unless, you're 100% sure that the pipe is full and under pressure (which is not the case here, obviously) noone would pump in full capacity and wouold begin from a trial pumping 70 atm instead of 300 atm).

4. It is technically impossible without technical gas (stolen). Dubina (Naftogaz CEO) confirmed yesterday that
it is technically possible and the only obstacle is political decision.
Is that enough?

Guest Wrote:Dear sektor_Gaza, unfortunately, these are not my fanasies. Russia already blamed Ukraine in stealing gas (did you see and approvements of it by the way?) and it makes its best now to assure EU that Ukraine is guilty.
Once again, just give me your answer: if Gazprom still wants to supply gas to EU, why they refused to change the route??? Ukrainian Naftogas sent its request to change the route of gas supplying twice! So what is the reason if Gazprom is still so much interested as you said?

If the ukrainians open the pipe, the monitors will see if it's empty or not. That's why they don't want to let the Russian gas in, do they? Not to provide the proof of having stealed the gas, i.e that the pipe is empty. As it is empty isn't it?

Another proof: Tymo used to cry out openly at the rallies that she had stolen "moskalsky" gas. If she admited having done in the past (under Kuchma) why should they stop doing it now, being at power?

First, the gas conflict is a kind of a political method to win during the Ukrainian Presidet election this year. I mean Viktor Yuschenko, who has a 3 per cent rating of popularity. To win he has to think up an enemy. History knows lots of examples like that.
Second, Mr. Yuschenko is the embodyment of the political absurd.
Third, Ukraine has no money to pay for gas. It was given a certain sum of a credit specially to pay for gas but the UKrainian government decided to waste the money credit for the absolutely silly, inhumane bank system.
P.S. It's hard for me to say (for i live in Ukraine), but this country has made a kind of a banana republic.

Hello all
I'm living in Ukraine and I am ashamed that... Because leadership of our country think about only their selfish ends: how to earn on transit of gas to Europe...
At this moment Naftogas of Ukraine transfer gas-scheme of country to the reverse regulations and used export pipe for this (to direct gas from west to east of Ukraine). So their could not to return to the averse requlations (to use export pipe only for its destination) while Russian does not start supplies of gas in Ukraine's inner pipe (Earth and South regions of Ukraine will lose gas)
So Ukraine avoids the responsibility to Europe.
I am sorry to people of Europe in whose houses is cold ans so on...

All right!! I see, that all west have some schisophrenic bias toward Russia, wich is unlogical and not fare. If USA and Israel killing thousand in Gaza - west just keep silence. But when Russia start to insist on faire prices (450 $ - fare price for Ukraine), all westerners start to scream - Russia behave badly! Just remember guys - What does not kill us - made us stronger.

You are always talking about Russia losing your trust. EU and the USA have constantly been pushing Russia away just at the moment it offers positive, honest partnership. But then you, who live in the west, criticize Russia when it looks for and find partners in Asia and Latin America. So, the question is: who's the unreliable partner in fact? EU and the USA or Russian Federation? I think the Europians and the Americans should learn more, much more about political history of the world, and especially about the history of the treatment of the west towards Russia before you make your own conclusions

SiD Wrote:huh? how is NATO and gas related?

RASSA does not want that Ukraine has entered NATO, and uses gas to make worse an economic situation in Ukraine, to change the government

Paul Wrote:Oh yea, my RussianRussianandagainveryRussian Friend,
Or should I say my FSB/KGB (no difference) friend!
Lieutenant, I wish you and your lovely Motherland best of luck! Just be decent, you and your commanders.

Definitely! And I am a KGB colonel drinking Russian vodka all the time with my bear, wearing "ushanka" ("Russian hat") even in Afganistan or other hot climate countries and playng Kalinka-Malinka on a hybrid of AK47 and balalaika.

Aren't you sick of yourself, brainwashed?

kazap Wrote:Whether it is guilty Ykraina? No! Its government that tries to transfer attention with internal problems on the external is guilty. How to unite round itself people? It is necessary to give them the general enemy and with it to struggle! Meanwhile doing itself a rating. The point of view Russian government as seems to me such: to repay a debt to Ykraina for its help of Georgia and to hint EU that in next time did not stand away from such actions

The europas when pays for gas, pays and for transit through Ukraine, it is included in cost which Russia asks. The market price for gas for Ukraine more low than in Europe, on a minus transit means.

African guy Wrote:I think its high time the word democracy is changed. I its meaning has changed. Nwadays a democratic government is one that Supports American interests, and not the one that rules in interest of its people. The Americans have just abused the words, now when someone says it, it sounds like some evil word. All the time its mentioned death is involved, opression or war. And Europeans are stupid enough they believe in the America democracy Doctrine. I hope they get bankrupt because they are a threat to humanity.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT, MAN. YOU KNOW WHAT IS PITY? YOU ARE GOING TO BE CALLED A KGB SPY BY EU FRIENDS. DAMN, YOU'RE SO RIGHT! BEST POST!

It is all too easy to let irrational emotivism and prejudicial presuppositions replace reason and a sense of perspective in discussions like this one. The question is Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine conflict?" The answer is yes. Russia cares because it believes that it was wronged by Ukraine and the dispute is costing much needed revenue and incalcuable damage to their reputation. Ukraine cares because it believes that it was wronged by Russia and is suffering similar economic damages. Europe cares because it has not wronged anyone and yet only its people are freezing.

As a lawyer, I cannot understand why the contract was not extended for three months with a few amendments to promote good faith bargaining. In any case, it was not and negotiations were deadlocked. Ukraines wellknown political wrangling and its resulting failure to resolve payment and contract issues long the start of winter cannot be justified or excusedby the Ukrainian people. Russia's decision to then shut off gas to Ukraine's 48 million people in mid winter while simultaneously demanding that Ukraine use its own reserves as technical gas to deliver supplies to Europe was unconscionable no matter how frustrating the situation was. But at least Europe still had gas.

Ukraine's decision to use gas intended for Europe to stransit that same gas instead of using gas from its own reserves may be understandable --but wit as nevertheless wrong and it escalated the conflict. Russia's response, the decision to shut off all gas to Europe for Europe rather than supply technical gas or allow Ukraine to use it for transit, is incomprehensible from both a business and legal oerspective. When Ukraine breached or repudiated its transit contract, Russia had a duty to mitigate damages. It should have kept pumping and just recording the difference between what it was pumping and what Europe was receiving. Instead, it transferred the real cost of the breakdown between it and Ukraine to Europe .

Both sides had another opportunity to do the right thing when the EU agreed to put independent monitors in place. They failed and it is not yet clear who really bears responsiblity for the failure but, as a lawyer, I would rather represent Ukraine for the simple reason that Russia ignored European pleas and never even attempted to send the full amount of gas due to Europe, nor to respond to Ukraine's request that it be shipped using a different route. Had Russia shipped the full amount of gas due to Europe with or without including transit gas, then the onus again would have been on Ukraine to meet its obligations. Russia never attempted full delivery, its reasons for doing so are incoherent, and it is therefore legally questionable whether Ukraine can be held liable for any damages to Europe once the monitors were in place.

By way of disclaimer, the applicable contracts are undoubtable more complex but for all their complexity, common sense and common principles of law usually prevail. But whoever is to be blamed, neither Russia nor Ukraine can rightly call themselves a victim; it is Europe who is the victim.

Lost in all of the legalities and technicalities, is the simple and inescapable fact that while Russians and Ukrainians continue to throw insults and point fingers at each other others from the relative warmth of their offices and homes, the lives of millions in Europe have been disrupted and endangered. People are actually freezing to death. Does anyone care about the conflict. Yes, I care. We all should.

Quote:Mr Hitleryuschenko is having its people and EU by all means!

No one had such a possibility to ruin the Ukrainian economy than the Ukrainian government (I mean the president, the prime-minister and the parliament) had. No one has ruined the economy of Ukraine so severely as the Ukrainian government has done it.

muschamp Wrote:guest

I live in the the west

If this was purely about business, the Russians would have given up by now, I understand that they are loosing $700 million dollars a month in this dispute.

Correct. this is not about business only. It's about politics as well. I'd say this is more about politics than busines and than ever has been before. AND FROM ALL SIDES INVOLVED directly (Russia, the Ukraine, Europe) or indirectly (Uncle Sam).

muschamp Wrote:No one takes that kind of hammering unless it was life and death.

What deep thinking!! I am impressed. Yes, it is life and death battle between you and us.

muschamp Wrote:Your country is in big trouble, the Russians have to stop that process. It is a security issue, the cost is the cost, you should have known better, you don't get something for nothing. 8-)

You'd better think for yours as it is in much much bigger trouble. What would you do when, say, China begin mass selling of US government bonds? Commiting suicide may be not the worst solution.

BK Wrote:It is all too easy to let irrational emotivism and prejudicial presuppositions replace reason and a sense of perspective in discussions like this one. The question is Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine conflict?" The answer is yes. Russia cares because it believes that it was wronged by Ukraine and the dispute is costing much needed revenue and incalcuable damage to their reputation. Ukraine cares because it believes that it was wronged by Russia and is suffering similar economic damages. Europe cares because it has not wronged anyone and yet only its people are freezing.

As a lawyer, I cannot understand why the contract was not extended for three months with a few amendments to promote good faith bargaining. In any case, it was not and negotiations were deadlocked. Ukraines wellknown political wrangling and its resulting failure to resolve payment and contract issues long the start of winter cannot be justified or excusedby the Ukrainian people. Russia's decision to then shut off gas to Ukraine's 48 million people in mid winter while simultaneously demanding that Ukraine use its own reserves as technical gas to deliver supplies to Europe was unconscionable no matter how frustrating the situation was. But at least Europe still had gas.

Ukraine's decision to use gas intended for Europe to stransit that same gas instead of using gas from its own reserves may be understandable --but wit as nevertheless wrong and it escalated the conflict. Russia's response, the decision to shut off all gas to Europe for Europe rather than supply technical gas or allow Ukraine to use it for transit, is incomprehensible from both a business and legal oerspective. When Ukraine breached or repudiated its transit contract, Russia had a duty to mitigate damages. It should have kept pumping and just recording the difference between what it was pumping and what Europe was receiving. Instead, it transferred the real cost of the breakdown between it and Ukraine to Europe .

Both sides had another opportunity to do the right thing when the EU agreed to put independent monitors in place. They failed and it is not yet clear who really bears responsiblity for the failure but, as a lawyer, I would rather represent Ukraine for the simple reason that Russia ignored European pleas and never even attempted to send the full amount of gas due to Europe, nor to respond to Ukraine's request that it be shipped using a different route. Had Russia shipped the full amount of gas due to Europe with or without including transit gas, then the onus again would have been on Ukraine to meet its obligations. Russia never attempted full delivery, its reasons for doing so are incoherent, and it is therefore legally questionable whether Ukraine can be held liable for any damages to Europe once the monitors were in place.

By way of disclaimer, the applicable contracts are undoubtable more complex but for all their complexity, common sense and common principles of law usually prevail. But whoever is to be blamed, neither Russia nor Ukraine can rightly call themselves a victim; it is Europe who is the victim.

Lost in all of the legalities and technicalities, is the simple and inescapable fact that while Russians and Ukrainians continue to throw insults and point fingers at each other others from the relative warmth of their offices and homes, the lives of millions in Europe have been disrupted and endangered. People are actually freezing to death. Does anyone care about the conflict. Yes, I care. We all should.

Ukraine also has suggested Russia to translate gas to Europe to another by.
At us in the south of Ukraine coldly enough now and if to transport gas to Europe as Russia insists, we will not have heat and hot meal,
But Russia insists to make only so.

May be EU peopel dont know that Russian peopel begins to live much better since Putin had became a president.
May be they dont think about that how we see situation now - earlie Russia kept silence when her interests in the world politics was treated but not now.
Why do you think we need to belive EU or US politics and mass media? there less information and facts. You never cared about us. Thats why we belive that our leaders says. And you are too. Who knows who says the truth, may be no one? Smile

Russia dont need this conflict - we need to sell our resourses and to have good relationsheeps with EU countries.
We dont need our name to be dirty. For what? EU can by resourses in other countries.
Some one else allways wanted to blame us, you all know who i meen. And we all know that Ukrainean leaders dong everething to help them. They dont care about Ukrainean and EU peopel. They really think they will be forgiven... As allwas.
For Ukr peopel - i know that your brain is washed agains the RU. But beleave you will rise and the new leader will come to you and make things better. We had the same in 98...

tanya Wrote:May be EU peopel dont know that Russian peopel begins to live much better since Putin had became a president

of course they know, they just are envious of that fact! Smile

:langue

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sektor_Gaza

Not RussianRussianRussian

Guest

RussianRussianRussian

Guest

African guy

antherion

Moskal

Moskal

Moskal

Kusnetsov

Yulya (russian in Crimea)

russian999

Kusnetsov

katya

Moskal

Katya

sektor_Gaza

BK

sektor_Gaza

Kusnetsov

Moskal

Katya

tanya

sektor_Gaza