Here we go again. Naftohaz is stealing gas. Where are the figures???? Inuendo???
So the fall back position pick on the party. It is interesting that there are no thieves in Russia. They seem to have a monopoly on fairness and honest dealings. So why do they demand $450 per cm from Ukraine? Is that the going market price or is this just an example of rip them off for that they can be ripped off for.
I think that it is time to just get at the facts of the situation and stop the bafflegab. Or is that the only way that this problem can be discussed.
Any links to caricatures on the issue, please,
Timoshenko is one of the worlds most corrupt individuals. And has no allies but herself. Now she holds millions of people hostage with her maneuverings. Julia, you must pay for the gas you stole from the russians. Not keep it in Switzerland. It is just that simple. The russians are under no obligation to give you free energy. And your people have paid for what they used. Pay up gas princess and quit trying to export your corruption outside your borders. Thank you.
bk Wrote:If Ukraine were solely to blame why is the EU today blaming BOTH Russia and Ukraine? And what of Ukraine's claims that Russia has deliberately chosen a route which would destabilise Ukraine's emergency routing of gas to its own populations ? Context! The issue is more complex that the word "blocking" suggests. Ukraine has asked Russia to use its normal major pipe routes to ship the gas. Russia could easily do this but it has refused. Ask yourself, Why?
There are 5 pipes in the Ukraine. Three of them are used to solely supply gas to EU, two of them are used to supply the gas to the Ukraine internal use only. Gazprom tried to order transfer through the transit pipe of the Ukraine, which shouldn't be used for internal Ukraine gas transfers between its regions. The pipe has to contain EU gas under high pressure of 75-100 bars. When Gazprom started its compressor it expected the Ukraine just opens both ends of the transit pipe and gas will be immediately available on the other end of the pipe - on the border of Ukraine and EU. But it occurs the EU transit pipe with EU (or russian) gas is already used by Ukraine for its internal purpose (maybe in reverse mode) to supply the gas to its regions. But where is the EU gas from the pipe? The pipe is long. It takes 36 hours to fill it with gas and reach its working pressure on the full length. And all this gas gone in unknown direction. Now the Ukraine wants Gazprom to fill the pipe again with the gas. I think nobody has to be genius to understand what happens next. The Ukraine will just interrupt gas transition to EU and will use gas from pipe for its own purpose again. 'Press any key to start the game again'. And supply the Ukraine with gas for free. EU can wait and hope the Russia solve the problem itself. At the same time the Ukraine insists the Gazprom has to transfer the gas through the one of two pipes that are used for the Ukraine internal use only (they are both go to south of the Ukraine, see the map in the reference earlier). Gazprom asks the Ukraine why should it used such unusual path for transit gas to EU? The Ukraine does not comment it, but insist Gazprom has to restore gas pressure in the pipe before transferring gas to EU. What do you think? Who do you believe?
In general this situation is a consequence of intimacy of the Ukraine and the US presidents. EU is a real hostage of their manipulation.
Nice to see that all the corruption is on the UKrainian side. Not one iota in Russia. So it is now Timoshenko that is the crook and not Yushchenko. Give me a break. Where is the data as to the gas that is supposed to have been stolen?????? Another fabrication?
Hey, idea of taking Russian/European transit gas has been discussed by Ukrainian top politicians and first of all -- personally by Julia T. Naftogas has threatening to Gazprom. In Official letter sent in 12.31.08 they stated that they're going to confiscate this gas. In 01.06.09 it has despaired. If I would threatening to steal/confiscate your backpack? If I discuss this issue with my friends & classmates, and once it will disappeared. Would you say that me is one to be in charge?
nisya Wrote:Any links to caricatures on the issue, please,
Forum is not designed for leaving URL, sorry.
Dear AlexB, please don't use a word "Ukraine" and "Ukrainians" discussing issue of Naftogas dirty game. It's not the Ukraine; it's only a few corrupt politicians from my country. Thank you.
Bloody hell Pete you're working overtime.
No need as the Kremlin seems to be making a 'robust' and 'entirely believable' explanation of events. :haha
Grow up, turn the gas on and charge Kiev 235 USD. It's very simple.
To Ukrainian. By the way if you are a true Ukrainian then you would know that "the Ukraine" is a no no. The "the" has been dropped years ago.
It is nice to see that you are so down on your corrupt politicians but see no problem with the Russian ones. In any fight there always two sides and it would be a miracle if one was lily white pure and the other one was all wrong. Maybe the reason why Ukraine has so many corrupt politicians is because the general public does not do anything about it. Hey they even voted heavily for a guy who cheated on the elections. I guess that there is an old saying. You make your bed and you have lie in it. It is no ones fault but your own.
I would still be interested to know if Russia has an adequate supply of gas to meet its contracts. Still have not seen anyone give any valid answer to that one.
Lucy:) Wrote:Ha!!! Russians suddenly decided to change the route of transiting within Ukraine, knowing beforehand that there will be difficulties in transportin'. in addition they didn't support nescesary pressure. And now they're wondering why there are still no gas in Europe. Well done 
uper . And after that Russia is going to demand from Ukraine to pay for all the loss, that Russia is now facing with..
1) the Route on which Russia tries to transfer europas gas is the basic transit route. It is the most important transit pipe which all time was used as a transit pipe and it was not used for internal needs of Ukraine.
2) to Support necessary pressure in this pipe, is a problem of Ukrainians because they to it operate, we cannot operate to it as it does not belong to us.
Ukraine has merged from this pipe our export gas to itself in storehouses, sells now this gas to the consumers, anything to us for this gas is not going to pay, that is has stolen it at us. And now Ukraine wants that we have presented to it a new portion of gas and free of charge again have filled this pipe with technical gas for transit maintenance.
And if Ukraine again in a month stops gas transit? It again will free of charge merge this gas to herself? And again will tell that we to it have presented gas to fill a pipe and to begin transit?
It is called the real larceny. After the termination of transit of gas they have merged gas to themselves in capacity. Start up will return this gas back in a pipe to continue gas transit.
They have been obliged to leave transit technical gas in a pipe, and not to steal it to themselves or if they have taken away it and sell to the consumers, they should pay to us for it.
Moreover they have been obliged to leave this technical gas in a pipe as it is demanded by a condition of preservation of gas pipelines.
They knew that gas transit all the same will begin and delighted sooner or later that while transit is not present, they can steal gas from a transit pipe and have stolen it, for it not having paid and it is copecks 160 000 000 м3. They hoped that we again will shut eyes to their larceny and we will free of charge present it this gas.
But we have already got tired of their larceny, we any more will not allow to steal from us gas. And after Ukraine blackmails us and undermines our image as reliable supplier of gas we do not wish to do by it the discount for gas, start up buy at the market price.
Guest 2 Wrote:Hey they even voted heavily for a guy who cheated on the elections.
Cheat on elections was a regular practice in Ukraine since 1991 because of mutual agreement of Ukrainian elites what’ve been afraid or Communist or Socialist return. Democratic countries were applauding for every election stolen from leftist. Western friends of Ukrainian democracy those crooks until 2004 -- first time when leftist were not a main part of the game. Have you ever work on Ukrainian elections? I did, and I really know what I'm talking about. However in 2004 we've got a situation when both presidential candidates -- non leftist were similarly cheating in regions where they have enough power. You can’t win the elections in Ukraine if you’re not cheating because your opponents will cheat anyway. However in 2004 one side was cheating and aggressively complaining about another one in a same time. They raise their people for protests, while another was more peaceful. Yanukovich side has really won the second tour of elections, but that victory was stolen through the popular coup. Last parliamentary elections 2006, one that were the result of anti-constitutional president's decision to dissolute Ukrainian parliament were the dirtiest one. Representative’s ob Julia Timoshenko Block were roaming through the country with huge amounts of cash bribing every single member of local electoral commissions (poor Ukrainian teachers) for $300. I've been talking to this people. And their answer was the same: "What can you give me instead? I got to pay my bills". That's sad, really sad. Why I don't talk about corruption in Russia? For the same reason, that I don't talk about American corruption, or European corruption, or Indian corruption. It's not an issue for me. World is corrupt in general. But Ukrainian combination of ideological fascist president, son of Nazi collaborator & gas thief government is too much, I bereave.
Guest2, I want to ask you another thing. Why every Ukrainian government pays for gas on time, but Mrs.Timomoshenko's? Why not Mr.Yanukovich, or Mr.Yehanurov has never ever had problems with bills form Gasprom? Why dose this lady always create them? Why Ukraine and EU have to pay for her mad idea that she spouse to rule this country.
I will repeat again:
1) the Route on which Russia tries to transfer europas gas is the basic transit route. It is the most important transit pipe which all time was used as a transit pipe and it was not used for internal needs of Ukraine.
2) Ukraine has merged from this pipe our export gas to itself in storehouses, sells now this gas to the consumers, anything to us for this gas is not going to pay, that is has stolen it at us. And now Ukraine wants that we have presented to it a new portion of gas and free of charge again have filled this pipe with technical gas for transit maintenance.
And if Ukraine again in a month stops gas transit? It again will free of charge merge this gas to herself? And again will tell that we to it have presented gas to fill a pipe and to begin transit?
It is called the real larceny. After the termination of transit of gas they have merged gas to themselves in capacity. Start up will return this gas back in a pipe to continue gas transit.
They have been obliged to leave transit technical gas in a pipe, and not to steal it to themselves or if they have taken away it and sell to the consumers, they should pay to us for it.
Moreover they have been obliged to leave this technical gas in a pipe as it is demanded by a condition of preservation of gas pipelines.
They knew that gas transit all the same will begin and delighted sooner or later that while transit is not present, they can steal gas from a transit pipe and have stolen it, for it not having paid. They hoped that we again will shut eyes to their larceny and we will free of charge present it this gas.
But we have already got tired of their larceny, we any more will not allow to steal from us gas. And after Ukraine blackmails us and undermines our image as reliable supplier of gas we do not wish to do by it the discount for gas, start up buy at the market price.
I guess that the solution would be to go for everything according to market price. The only problem is that there are monopolies in the gas field and Russia demands attrocious prices for gas. Note oil prices have dropped yet not so with gas. So much for market prices.
What is really meant by market price is what is demanded by the Russian party. If this can be done for the price of gas then why not for the price of transit. The only market mechanism in this mess is when the price of gas will go too high alternate fuels will be used. The only problem with that is the time required to convert. So in the meantime if Europe is foolish enough to have no replacement for the Russian gas then the fiasco will continue. This goes as well for Ukraine.
Looks like Europe has become the whipping boy of Russia. Good luck!!!
To Europeans:
Yes since Ukraine signed Energy Charter we are ready to work free for some period. But there are two minimal requirements: technical protocols and technical gas. I believe Russians will make real show trying to solve this child pet… or they really can’t solve anything at all?
To local Bryton Beach:
Pfff, pussy dying swans were speculating by riches of exploited Siberia for years. Now this is about to stop. They will learn how to work – build houses, clean floors, and put nails.
How much Russian gas does really cost? It costs nothing at all if it can’t be delivered.
guest Wrote:What is really meant by market price is what is demanded by the Russian party.
Are you not aware how the price for gas is formed? It is a product of average oil price for a significant period (I think 6 month) delayed up to 6-9 month in time. This price is averaged to avoid speculative outbreaks on the oil market. When the oil price goes up, the gas price goes up too, but 6-9 months later. Until the rise happens the consumers of the gas pay unfair low price for it. But this is the methodology. Gazprom does not invent price. It just calculates it. Now it is time to have gas prices, which are product of oil prices of spring and summer of 2008. The price is high. Fortunately this will change when the gas price will be calculated for the oil prices period of autumn 2008, winter 2009.
Do you doubt about market price of oil or methodology to take the market oil price as a base for gas price? Just emotions that the price is high. I hope EU and Ukraine were aware of the market oil prices and could imagine the gas price for the next period to reserve the money for it. Non-market prices for Ukraine has gone since their top politicians has gone from russian political interests and provided interests of US. Remember arming of Georgia by Ukraine and the fight of Georgia with limited russian forces conducted after that.
The market price for gas is not a punishment of Ukraine, it is absence of preference that Russia provided to Ukraine earlier without noticeble positive political feedback. If Russia were going to punish Ukraine it would suggest $1000 for gas to Ukraine instead of $470 for EU (the price is named for 1000 cubic meters outside of GB and US, which is equivalent of 1 metric ton of oil).
Max Wrote:To Europeans:
Yes since Ukraine signed Energy Charter we are ready to work free for some period. But there are two minimal requirements: technical protocols and technical gas. I believe Russians will make real show trying to solve this child pet… or they really can’t solve anything at all?
To local Bryton Beach:
Pfff, pussy dying swans were speculating by riches of exploited Siberia for years. Now this is about to stop. They will learn how to work – build houses, clean floors, and put nails.
How much Russian gas does really cost? It costs nothing at all if it can’t be delivered.
Ukrainians make me smailing ! Just consider worst scenario - Russia cut all supplay to Ukraine and Europe. Who will lost more? Russia will get temporarly budget deficit, but later on wie will find customers. But Ukraine forever will by gas by market price from her frends (Norwey etcetera). Same with Europe! Ukrainian economic will be just uncompetitive compleatly!
Eugeny Wrote:Ivan Wrote:Ukrainian officials said Gazprom had "deliberately" sent the gas by a route that would have meant switching off gas to Ukrainian consumers in the east of the country. Instead of supplying gas via the traditional route, through Ukraine's Belgorod and Rostov region, it had been sent on a bypass route which would paralyse supplies to the towns of Donetsk and Luhansk. "This is just provocation against Ukraine," said Bohdan Sokolovsky, Ukraine's commissioner for energy security.
[/i]
How long Belgorod and Rostov are Ukraine's regions? Did I miss something? Did you seen the map? E.g.: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm">http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm</a><!-- m -->. Eastern Europeans are hostages of Ukrainian dumbocracy.
According agency Interfax (Russia) 13.01.2009 Bohdan Sokolovsky said "Traditionally the gas goes to Orlovka via the route through Valuiky (Belgorod region) and Pisarevka (Rostov region). Proposed (by russian counterparts) route through Sudga means that we should paralyse internal gas delivery to the Donetsk and Lugansk regions."
So, nothing about strange Ukraine's regions of Belgorod and Rostov.
Successful provocation, isn't it?
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:banghead
Quote:I think you are just retelling Putin's lies, my dear Russian999. Your "responsible" government has cut off gas to many Europeans. Just to keep your promisses? Even the former Soviet Uninon never did it during. even during the cold war.
Oh, please, don't retell the neocon anglo-saxon lies. Gazprom keeps on providing gas to its european clients through the pipelines outside Ukraine. So this is your beloved "Orange" Ukrainian clique that steals your gas and keeps on lying about it.
UKS are peasants that are not capable to agree, make decisions among themselves, incapable to govern !
KK
SiD Wrote:Yes there just come some "patriots" of Ukraine and started thier anoing rumbling about hitler, KGB, georgia, USSR and so on. Matter is simple PAY for gas and it will be no problems. Want to be part of Europe than european price will suit you fine and we wont object either 
. Pay your debt for gas ALREADY consumed and sign new contract that is all that needed from them but it seems too much to ask from "democratic" country .
I wish it were so simple. How can you pay when the price keeps changing? Different countries pay different amounts. Russia now wants $450 from Ukraine --its largest customer, but the average aggregate price of gas for Europe is under $300 and the forecast price for 2009 is under $250. Ukraine paid its bills but then Russia claimed another 600,000 in disputed fines and penalties --not for Gas. Meanwhile, the price that Russia is paying for gas transit is one haf to one third of the transit prices in Europe and that price is fixed until 2011. The price of gas was supposed to GRADUALLY increase to market price in 2011 at which time a long term contract on both transit and gas was to be signed. Russia wants to make Ukraine pay the highest possible price for gas while it, Russia, pays the lowest transit price. Who is trying to take advantage of whom? Also, Ukraine has actually been paying Russia $320 since Russia sells the gas to RosUkrEnergo, a corrupt intermediary 50% owned by Russia and whose profits are used to further corruption in the Ukrainian political system, and RosUkrEnergo sells it to Ukraine for $320. No one knows where RosUkrEnergo money goes even though it is half-owned by Russia's Gazprom. As I said, I wish it were as simple as you seem to believe. If it were, Russia would not be attacking Ukrainian politicians or accusing Washington of causing the problem... which is truly bizarre....
Nick Wrote:Ukraine is not guilty in this conflict.
They needed gas for pumps to send it farther to EU countries. So they took the necessary gas.
This amount of gas is small.. Russia said that Ukraine was stealing gas but in reality they dropped the gas pressure themselves so that Ukraine looks bad. When EU experts came to the place to see what is happening Russia stopped the gas altogether.
I believe Russia is losing a lot with this behavior. There are even rumors that they don't have anymore gas and thats why they do not care.
As Russian I agree that the Ukrainian people (our brothers and sisters) are not guilty! But thieves are on the top level who sold our brothers to the american bitchs! This conflict is a game in the Great Play against Russia! When communism was ruined, I thought the friendship would be! However, the envy of "democrats" ("shitcrats") enhanced agaist Russia. The matter is not related to communism! The matter is size and wealth of territory of Russia!
Yuriy Wrote:According agency Interfax (Russia) 13.01.2009 Bohdan Sokolovsky said "Traditionally the gas goes to Orlovka via the route through Valuiky (Belgorod region) and Pisarevka (Rostov region). Proposed (by russian counterparts) route through Sudga means that we should paralyse internal gas delivery to the Donetsk and Lugansk regions."
So, nothing about strange Ukraine's regions of Belgorod and Rostov.
Successful provocation, isn't it?
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:banghead
Please, look at the map, which Eugeny referred to. Sudga - Uzhgorod is the biggest transit ( just transit! ) route, isn't it? 208.3 millions of cubic meters against 100.1 from Valuiky and Pisarevka. So, nothing strange about Sudga, if consider that Russia wants to restore supplies as quickly as it can be. I wonder, can you explain, why the main transit system cannot work even at 40% of power without "paralyzing" internal gas delivery in region, which is not connected with this system at all?
Do you really beleive it is possible to find who is guilty in this countries? It's shame for me to live in Ukraine with this "democracy", it is shame for russians to beleive all the brainwashes of their government. I don't beleive something will change even after someone will be declared guilty. Both countries are living in lies - both will die in lies to. Only thing I hope - europeans will not mark all ukrainians as untrusted because of such government...
K
RussianRussianRussian Wrote:I will repeat again:
the Route on which Russia tries to transfer europas gas is the basic transit route. It is the most important transit pipe which all time was used as a transit pipe and it was not used for internal needs of Ukraine.
Ukraine blackmails us and undermines our image as reliable supplier of gas we do not wish to do by it the discount for gas, start up buy at the market price.
Perhaps you need to diversify your information sources as much as Europe needs to diversify its energy sources. Here is a relevant comment from the European EUObserver:
"... sympathy remains for Kiev in the EU capital after the commission's gas monitors in Russia and Ukraine reported on Tuesday that Gazprom's choice of transit route to resume EU supplies was not the best possible.
"To turn off the gas to a country of 45 million people [Ukraine] in the middle of winter is energy blackmail and nothing else," one EU official said, with Ukrainian companies also forced to cut production as stocks dwindle.
Quote:Naftogaz says it is not passing on supplies to Europe due to unacceptable conditions set by Gazprom
Russia's prime minister, Vladimir Putin, today accused Ukraine of holding Europe hostage by refusing to pass on gas, as supplies remained shut off in a week-long crisis that has seen factories closed and thousands of people without winter heating.
As the European commission president, José Manuel Barroso, warned of possible legal action against the state-run gas companies in Russia and Ukraine, Putin insisted that it was only Ukraine which could ensure the resumption of supplies.
"We opened the tap, and are ready to supply gas, but on the other side, the tap is closed," said Putin. "Nobody, no transit country, has the right to use its transit location to take other customers hostage."
He added: "European commission officials could use their influence over Ukraine more to ensure the supply of gas."